Discussion:
Sospan Fach - Score?
(too old to reply)
Andrew Davidson
2003-10-06 10:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Can anyone help me find the manuscript (score) for Sospan fach? Is it available
somewhere on the internet? Alternatively, MP3 or MIDI versions would be useful.

Thanks for any help.
--
Andrew Davidson
Diane Easby
2003-10-06 14:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Davidson
Can anyone help me find the manuscript (score) for Sospan fach? Is it available
somewhere on the internet? Alternatively, MP3 or MIDI versions would be useful.
Thanks for any help.
It's listed in the Mudcat Digital Tradition under Sospan Vach. Lyrics
and midi at http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5484
Jon Freeman
2003-10-06 15:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diane Easby
It's listed in the Mudcat Digital Tradition under Sospan Vach. Lyrics
Interesting Wesh lyrics! I don't think the lyrics were requested but if they
are required one would be better going to:

http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/welsh/mysweetm.htm

This site seems to use the same set of English lyrics as the dt but credits
them to William Cole and Peter John Stephens.

Is it really a nonsense song as suggested in the dt? I'd have thought it
more a woman bewailing her problems.
Luned
2003-10-06 20:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Freeman
Is it really a nonsense song as suggested in the dt? I'd have thought it
more a woman bewailing her problems.
Yes, as far as I know :-)
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
Gwyn R
2003-10-06 21:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luned
Post by Jon Freeman
Is it really a nonsense song as suggested in the dt? I'd have thought it
more a woman bewailing her problems.
Yes, as far as I know :-)
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
The third and fourth line in the second verse are translated incorrectly. A
better translation would be -

The baby in the cradle has grown up
and the cat sleeps peacefully (mean's it's dead I think)

There's also several "unofficial" verses about the international teams that
Llanelli have beaten.
Luned
2003-10-06 22:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gwyn R
Post by Luned
Post by Jon Freeman
Is it really a nonsense song as suggested in the dt? I'd have thought it
more a woman bewailing her problems.
Yes, as far as I know :-)
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
The third and fourth line in the second verse are translated incorrectly. A
better translation would be -
The baby in the cradle has grown up
and the cat sleeps peacefully (mean's it's dead I think)
I haven't looked at the words for ages. I had an idea that the cat
died in the third verse, BICBW.
Post by Gwyn R
There's also several "unofficial" verses about the international teams that
Llanelli have beaten.
*G*

By the way... ble mae pawb - eto?
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
Diane Easby
2003-10-06 22:34:14 UTC
Permalink
No, can't see any mention of "a woman bewailing her problems". Is
this buried in the Welsh text? Would a better rendition be that
because someone (presumably a man) has gone off to throw an oddly
shaped ball around, someone else (possibly a woman) must cope alone
with domestic crises?

The original request was for a score, MP3 or MIDI. Mudcat provides
the MIDI.
Jon Freeman
2003-10-06 22:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diane Easby
No, can't see any mention of "a woman bewailing her problems". Is
this buried in the Welsh text? Would a better rendition be that
because someone (presumably a man) has gone off to throw an oddly
shaped ball around, someone else (possibly a woman) must cope alone
with domestic crises?
LOL but Diane, My guess was that "Little Dai" (Dai Bach) was her husband who
had gone off to be a soldier.

Mary Ann seems to have hurt her finger. She's not "Sweet" as in the English
lyrics, maybe a daughter or perhaps a cook?
David the manservant in not feeling well.
The baby in the cradle is crying
The cat's scratched "Little Johnny"
Saucepans are boiling on the fire and on the floor. (quite how a pot boils
on the floor - ar a llawr - is beyond me).

Any Welsh speakers here who can give an accurate translation of:

"A chwt i grys e' mas."

Jon (who can remember little of the Welsh he learned in later primary/early
secondary school and is trying to use an on line dictionary)
Jon Freeman
2003-10-07 00:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Freeman
Saucepans are boiling on the fire and on the floor. (quite how a pot boils
on the floor - ar a llawr - is beyond me).
Pip suggested to me that the:

Sospan fach yn berwi ar y tân
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr

may mean that both saucepans are boiling over, maybe the little one just
boiling over enough to spit on the fire, and that the big one is spilling
its water over onto the floor.
Austin Shackles
2003-10-07 12:54:24 UTC
Permalink
On or around Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:59:06 +0100, "Jon Freeman"
Post by Jon Freeman
Post by Diane Easby
No, can't see any mention of "a woman bewailing her problems". Is
this buried in the Welsh text? Would a better rendition be that
because someone (presumably a man) has gone off to throw an oddly
shaped ball around, someone else (possibly a woman) must cope alone
with domestic crises?
LOL but Diane, My guess was that "Little Dai" (Dai Bach) was her husband who
had gone off to be a soldier.
Mary Ann seems to have hurt her finger. She's not "Sweet" as in the English
lyrics, maybe a daughter or perhaps a cook?
David the manservant in not feeling well.
The baby in the cradle is crying
The cat's scratched "Little Johnny"
Saucepans are boiling on the fire and on the floor. (quite how a pot boils
on the floor - ar a llawr - is beyond me).
"A chwt i grys e' mas."
shirt-tail out.

I thought the translation was a bit non-literal, but then you can;t easily
do literal translation of song lyrics, and still have something you can sing
to the original tune...

I also picked up the errors as pointed out. I don;t think the cat dies,
necessarily - Dafydd y gwas dies...

BTW, ddim yn iach translates literally to "isn't healthy"

There are any number of additional bits sung along of it, too,
traditionally. There's another bit about Dai Bach y Soldiwr:

O hwp e mewn, Dai,
O hwp e mewn, Dai,
O, hwp e mewn, Dai,
Mae'n gas i weld e mas.

which is basically "put it in, Dai, it looks naff..." in colloquial
translation... "gas i weld" is summat like "unsightly", although gas (from
cas) actually is angry, in other context.

and we won't start about the bit about Dafydd Dafis Ffos-y-Ffin, 'cos that's
rude...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
Nigel Stapley
2003-10-07 17:58:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Austin Shackles
On or around Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:59:06 +0100, "Jon Freeman"
Post by Jon Freeman
Post by Diane Easby
No, can't see any mention of "a woman bewailing her problems". Is
this buried in the Welsh text? Would a better rendition be that
because someone (presumably a man) has gone off to throw an oddly
shaped ball around, someone else (possibly a woman) must cope alone
with domestic crises?
LOL but Diane, My guess was that "Little Dai" (Dai Bach) was her husband who
had gone off to be a soldier.
Mary Ann seems to have hurt her finger. She's not "Sweet" as in the English
lyrics, maybe a daughter or perhaps a cook?
David the manservant in not feeling well.
The baby in the cradle is crying
The cat's scratched "Little Johnny"
Saucepans are boiling on the fire and on the floor. (quite how a pot boils
on the floor - ar a llawr - is beyond me).
"A chwt i grys e' mas."
shirt-tail out.
I thought the translation was a bit non-literal, but then you can;t easily
do literal translation of song lyrics, and still have something you can sing
to the original tune...
I also picked up the errors as pointed out. I don;t think the cat dies,
necessarily - Dafydd y gwas dies...
BTW, ddim yn iach translates literally to "isn't healthy"
There are any number of additional bits sung along of it, too,
O hwp e mewn, Dai,
O hwp e mewn, Dai,
O, hwp e mewn, Dai,
Mae'n gas i weld e mas.
which is basically "put it in, Dai, it looks naff..." in colloquial
translation... "gas i weld" is summat like "unsightly", although gas (from
cas) actually is angry, in other context.
and we won't start about the bit about Dafydd Dafis Ffos-y-Ffin, 'cos that's
rude...
I've had a fascinating couple of minutes trying to relate Mudcat's
'phonetic' spelling to the original. I think I've figured it. So, in the
original :

Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi briwo
A Dafydd y gwas ddim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn ei grud yn crio
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.

(Mary-Ann has hurt her finger
And Dafydd the servant isn't well.
The baby's in his cradle crying
And the cat has scratched little Johnny)

Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.

(A little saucepan boiling on the fire,
A big saucepan boiling on the floor....)

Dai Bach Y Soldiwr (x3)
A chwt ei grys e mâs

(Little Dai the soldier (x3)
With his shirt-tail out)

Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi gwella,
A Dafydd y gwas yn ei fedd.
Mae'r baban yn ei grud wedi tewi,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.

(Mary-Ann's finger is better,
A Dafydd the servant's in his grave.
The baby in his cradle is quiet
And the cat has gone to sleep in peace)

Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.

****************************

I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all this
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of such
phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.

Dafydd the servant certainly dies, but the cat might have bought it too, as
'huno mewn hedd' would be a phrase much used on gravestones.

*****************************

I'll stop here before I go to deeply into Cecil-Sharpery.

(Beware of Sabines Baring Gould....)
--
Cofion gorau

Nigel Stapley

www.judgemental.plus.com

<fydd y cyfeiriad e-bost trwy 'reply' yn methu>
Gwyn R
2003-10-07 21:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've had a fascinating couple of minutes trying to relate Mudcat's
'phonetic' spelling to the original. I think I've figured it. So, in the
Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi briwo
A Dafydd y gwas ddim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn ei grud yn crio
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.
(Mary-Ann has hurt her finger
And Dafydd the servant isn't well.
The baby's in his cradle crying
And the cat has scratched little Johnny)
Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.
(A little saucepan boiling on the fire,
A big saucepan boiling on the floor....)
Dai Bach Y Soldiwr (x3)
A chwt ei grys e mâs
(Little Dai the soldier (x3)
With his shirt-tail out)
Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi gwella,
A Dafydd y gwas yn ei fedd.
Mae'r baban yn ei grud wedi tewi,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.
(Mary-Ann's finger is better,
A Dafydd the servant's in his grave.
The baby in his cradle is quiet
And the cat has gone to sleep in peace)
Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.
****************************
I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all this
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of such
phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.
Dafydd the servant certainly dies, but the cat might have bought it too, as
'huno mewn hedd' would be a phrase much used on gravestones.
*****************************
I'll stop here before I go to deeply into Cecil-Sharpery.
(Beware of Sabines Baring Gould....)
--
Cofion gorau
Nigel Stapley
www.judgemental.plus.com
<fydd y cyfeiriad e-bost trwy 'reply' yn methu>
I found these lyrics in the rugby programme for the famous 1972 Llanelli vs
New Zealand game, or as Max Boyce calls it " The day the pubs ran dry".
They're the words I've allways sung, normally after a few pints of Double
Dragon ;-) , except for the last verse which is a new one on me.

Mae bys Meri Ann wedi brifo
A Dafydd y was dim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn y crud yh crio
A'r cath wedi scrapo Joni Bach.

Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi scrapo Joni Bach.

Dai Bach y soldiwr,
Dai Bach y soldiwr,
Dai Bach y soldiwr,
A'i gwt ei grys e mas.

Shwt grys oedd ganddo?
Shwt grys oedd ganddo?
Shwt grys oedd ganddo?
Crys bach gwyn a streipen las.
Nigel Stapley
2003-10-07 21:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gwyn R
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've had a fascinating couple of minutes trying to relate Mudcat's
'phonetic' spelling to the original. I think I've figured it. So, in the
Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi briwo
A Dafydd y gwas ddim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn ei grud yn crio
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.
(Mary-Ann has hurt her finger
And Dafydd the servant isn't well.
The baby's in his cradle crying
And the cat has scratched little Johnny)
Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.
(A little saucepan boiling on the fire,
A big saucepan boiling on the floor....)
Dai Bach Y Soldiwr (x3)
A chwt ei grys e mâs
(Little Dai the soldier (x3)
With his shirt-tail out)
Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi gwella,
A Dafydd y gwas yn ei fedd.
Mae'r baban yn ei grud wedi tewi,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.
(Mary-Ann's finger is better,
A Dafydd the servant's in his grave.
The baby in his cradle is quiet
And the cat has gone to sleep in peace)
Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi huno mewn hedd.
****************************
I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all this
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of
such
Post by Nigel Stapley
phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.
Dafydd the servant certainly dies, but the cat might have bought it too,
as
Post by Nigel Stapley
'huno mewn hedd' would be a phrase much used on gravestones.
*****************************
I'll stop here before I go to deeply into Cecil-Sharpery.
(Beware of Sabines Baring Gould....)
--
Cofion gorau
Nigel Stapley
www.judgemental.plus.com
<fydd y cyfeiriad e-bost trwy 'reply' yn methu>
I found these lyrics in the rugby programme for the famous 1972 Llanelli vs
New Zealand game, or as Max Boyce calls it " The day the pubs ran dry".
They're the words I've allways sung, normally after a few pints of Double
Dragon ;-) , except for the last verse which is a new one on me.
Mae bys Meri Ann wedi brifo
A Dafydd y was dim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn y crud yh crio
A'r cath wedi scrapo Joni Bach.
Sosban fach yn berwi ar y tân,
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr,
A'r gath wedi scrapo Joni Bach.
I remember "Sports Medley" which used to be broadcast on the BBC Welsh Home
Service (later Radio Wales) on Saturday evenings. It always used to begin
and end with a male-voice choir (natch!) singing it, and it was definitely
"sgrapo" or "sgraffo" in their rendition.

The programme was always known to my father by the name of the song rather
than by its proper title. "Eesht now!", he'd say, "Sosban Fach's coming
on!".
--
Regards

Nigel Stapley

www.judgemental.plus.com

<reply e-mail address will bounce>
geraint
2003-10-08 08:21:20 UTC
Permalink
sgwennodd "Nigel Stapley" <***@judgemental.plus.com> yn neges news:z9Dgb.5012$***@wards.force9.net...
<toriad>
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've had a fascinating couple of minutes trying to relate Mudcat's
'phonetic' spelling to the original.
Phonetic? It's terrible! I remember seeing a phonetic version of "Wele
cawsom y meseia" from a friend who was singing it in an (English) choir. The
only way I could work out what it was supposed to be was to get her to read
them out and decipher them...

<toriad>
Post by Nigel Stapley
Mae bys Meri-Ann wedi briwo
A Dafydd y gwas ddim yn iach,
Mae'r baban yn ei grud yn crio
A'r gath wedi crafu Joni Bach.
Another version of this line is "A'r gath wedi _sgramo_ Joni Bach" - it's a
bit of a more serious cat attack than a scratch. probably by a cat in south
Wales too.

<toriad>
Post by Nigel Stapley
And the cat has gone to sleep in peace)
I think the cat's snuffed it here - it's resting in peace, not just
sleeping.

<toriad>
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all this
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of such
phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.
Particularly when it gets to the "Hwp e fewn Dai" section. This is generally
accompanied by various thrusting actions of some sort or another.
Post by Nigel Stapley
Dafydd the servant certainly dies, but the cat might have bought it too, as
'huno mewn hedd' would be a phrase much used on gravestones.
Gweler uchod :-)

hwyl!
geraint.
Jon Freeman
2003-10-08 10:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by geraint
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all this
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of
such phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.
Particularly when it gets to the "Hwp e fewn Dai" section. This is generally
accompanied by various thrusting actions of some sort or another.
Hmm, that seems to translate to something like "Push it in Dai".

I've never heard of bits like that. Would these bits be new ones, perhaps
added for a rugby audience where songs (at least it's the case with English
ones) are typically bawdy or, perhaps as may have been hinted at by Nigel
Stapely with his reference to Baring-Gould, are we just more used to seeing
a sanitised version of the original song?

Jon
geraint
2003-10-08 12:20:48 UTC
Permalink
sgwennodd "Jon Freeman" <***@folkinfo.org> yn neges news:bm0oui$nib$***@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
<toriad>
Post by Jon Freeman
Hmm, that seems to translate to something like "Push it in Dai".
Yes... Usually sung with great emphasis on the "hwp"...
Post by Jon Freeman
I've never heard of bits like that. Would these bits be new ones, perhaps
added for a rugby audience where songs (at least it's the case with English
ones) are typically bawdy or, perhaps as may have been hinted at by Nigel
Stapely with his reference to Baring-Gould, are we just more used to seeing
a sanitised version of the original song?
"Hwp e fewn Dai" is pretty common - I've always known it to follow on from
the "Dai bach y soldiwr" bit - even as a kid, so it can't be considered that
rude!
In terms of his shirt-tails, it makes sense - it just seems to get some
additional "interpretation" when rugby's involved :-)

hwyl!
geraint.
Austin Shackles
2003-10-08 19:45:29 UTC
Permalink
On or around Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:27:15 +0100, "Jon Freeman"
Post by geraint
Post by geraint
Post by Nigel Stapley
I've always understood that there was a strong sexual sub-text to all
this
Post by geraint
Post by Nigel Stapley
(of course, I could just be dirty-minded), and the metaphorical use of
such phrases as 'hurt her finger' may fit in here.
Particularly when it gets to the "Hwp e fewn Dai" section. This is
generally
Post by geraint
accompanied by various thrusting actions of some sort or another.
Hmm, that seems to translate to something like "Push it in Dai".
his shirt-tail, of course...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt"
(confound the men who have made our remarks before us.)
Aelius Donatus (4th Cent.) [St. Jerome, Commentary on Ecclesiastes]
Luned
2003-10-07 20:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Austin Shackles
and we won't start about the bit about Dafydd Dafis Ffos-y-Ffin, 'cos that's
rude...
We won't? Never mind. it'll be something for me to look forward to
next time I find myself in your part of the world, or when you have
an archery meet round by year ;-)
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
Andrew Davidson
2003-10-07 00:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diane Easby
The original request was for a score, MP3 or MIDI. Mudcat provides
the MIDI.
Diane, thanks for that. I have downloaded the MIDI, and then used Noteworthy to
convert it to a score. Many thanks.

Now... a supplementary. I wonder if anyone knows of a setting of Sospan Fach for
the Great Highland Bagpipes?
--
Andrew Davidson
Jon Freeman
2003-10-07 10:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Davidson
Now... a supplementary. I wonder if anyone knows of a setting of Sospan Fach for
the Great Highland Bagpipes?
I'm not sure if my memory is playing tricks with me but I noticed the MIDI
on the page I gave was sequenced by Barry Taylor. Something in the back of
my mind tells me he is a plays those pipes.
Luned
2003-10-07 20:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Davidson
Now... a supplementary. I wonder if anyone knows of a setting of Sospan Fach for
the Great Highland Bagpipes?
"_!!_" Mind, it wouldn't surprise me if there is one, somewhere,
bagpipes being a Welsh thing as well as Scots and Irish - or you
could just molish one up...
--
Teipiwch yn araf, os gwelwch yn dda: dim ond dysgwraig dw i ;-)
Jason Hill
2003-10-06 18:02:28 UTC
Permalink
In Llanwrtyd Wells, there is a shop with a plaque on it denoting the
building as the 'birthplace' of Sospan Bach: presumably where it was
composed.

Jason
Post by Jon Freeman
Post by Diane Easby
It's listed in the Mudcat Digital Tradition under Sospan Vach. Lyrics
Interesting Wesh lyrics! I don't think the lyrics were requested but if they
http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/welsh/mysweetm.htm
This site seems to use the same set of English lyrics as the dt but credits
them to William Cole and Peter John Stephens.
Is it really a nonsense song as suggested in the dt? I'd have thought it
more a woman bewailing her problems.
--
Jason Hill
Loading...