countertenors in folk

[Jack Campin - bogus address]

Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?

It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps. So you'd expect it
to have been done before.

(Scholl was okay, what I heard - certainly more idiomatic than
the British classical singers like Luxon and Pears who recorded
folk songs in the Fifties, or Kiri Te Kanawa more recently).

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[David Kilpatrick]

Neil Young was a pretty good counter-tenor in his day :-)

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps. So you'd expect it
to have been done before.
(Scholl was okay, what I heard - certainly more idiomatic than
the British classical singers like Luxon and Pears who recorded
folk songs in the Fifties, or Kiri Te Kanawa more recently).
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[Molly Mockford]

At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps.

A bit like yodelling, I suppose - a little innate ability and a lot of
practice. About a quarter-century ago I had a boyfriend who had in his
day been a boy soprano at Christ's College, and who could still sing "O
for the Wings of a Dove" in pure soprano (I couldn't reach the notes he
reached) - and I can assure you that he was physically perfectly normal
;-}

[Dai Crowther]

While at Stainsby in the 80's I tried to gate vault a metal barrier and
failed to complete but I sang like an angel in the club tent that night.
No, true, really - angelic voice and fixed grin.

Dai.

ps. Vin Garbutt thought I was suffering from 'Batchelor's Bollocks' whatever
that is.

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps. So you'd expect it
to have been done before.
(Scholl was okay, what I heard - certainly more idiomatic than
the British classical singers like Luxon and Pears who recorded
folk songs in the Fifties, or Kiri Te Kanawa more recently).
==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[Irene Shettle]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?

Not quite sure what you mean by "in the folk music of the British
Isles". Alfred Deller, noted counter-tenor at a time when it was
definitely seen as an unusal voice to be using, made a number of
recordings of English folk songs, which are still available on CD.
These are well worth a listen. As someone (possibly Diane Easby?)
pointed out on another forum, he was not a formally trained
counter-tenor, and, perhaps as a result, his singing is unforced and
easier to listen to than (say) the plummy received pronounciation of a
singer like Peter Pears (tenor, not counter-tenor). If you intended to
mean "were any source singers singing as counter-tenors", can't say,
but (personally) I wouldn't have thought so as until fairly recent
years it was seen as a somewhat freakish way to sing by many.

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps.

Witness the singing of many men in the pop arena! If you really listen
to what they are doing, often as not they're using counter-tenor
techniques. I believe that baritones are actually able to use the
counter-tenor range, whereas it is more difficult for a tenor. (But
then, as there are relatively few true tenors around, that probably
means most men should be able to use a counter-tenor range)

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[David Kilpatrick]

Post by Irene Shettle

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?

Not quite sure what you mean by "in the folk music of the British
Isles". Alfred Deller, noted counter-tenor at a time when it was
definitely seen as an unusal voice to be using, made a number of
recordings of English folk songs, which are still available on CD.
These are well worth a listen. As someone (possibly Diane Easby?)
pointed out on another forum, he was not a formally trained
counter-tenor, and, perhaps as a result, his singing is unforced and
easier to listen to than (say) the plummy received pronounciation of a
singer like Peter Pears (tenor, not counter-tenor). If you intended to
mean "were any source singers singing as counter-tenors", can't say,
but (personally) I wouldn't have thought so as until fairly recent
years it was seen as a somewhat freakish way to sing by many.

Jack perhaps knows something which I also suspect - from descriptions of
early 19th and 18th century male singing, and from the pitches
frequently found in songs (especially Scots) a high tenor was most
desirable.

Arthur Marshall, from the folk group Jacouse, sings in a natural
counter-tenor and it's an odd thing; I can sing at the same pitch, but
nothing like in the same timbre. If I try his pitch for songs I know,
I'm 'thinning out' into the usual rather abrasive and forced end of the
tenor register. He's pure and sweet in tone at a high but unforced
pitch, which is exactly how Scott, Burns, Ramsay etc appeared to want a
highly-regarded male singer to sound.

I think it was considered LESS freakish in the past, especially in the
days before recording and amplification. It is considerably easier to be
heard at modest volumes singing alto or counter-tenor.

David

[Malcolm Douglas]

Post by Irene Shettle

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps.

Witness the singing of many men in the pop arena! If you really listen
to what they are doing, often as not they're using counter-tenor
techniques. I believe that baritones are actually able to use the
counter-tenor range, whereas it is more difficult for a tenor. (But
then, as there are relatively few true tenors around, that probably
means most men should be able to use a counter-tenor range)

Although natural male altos have always existed, "counter-tenor",
nowadays, is most usually a falsetto baritone. A chap I was at school
with did freelance counter-tenor work (at one point he sang with one of
Fritz Spiegl's outfits); his natural voice was baritone. Out of
curiosity, I've tried singing in that range myself. I'm more a
bass-baritone, so I got rather strangled sounds on the higher notes; but
it isn't, in principle, very difficult. Just requires a *lot* of
practise to do properly.

Malcolm Douglas

[Alan Crozier]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps. So you'd expect it
to have been done before.
(Scholl was okay, what I heard - certainly more idiomatic than
the British classical singers like Luxon and Pears who recorded
folk songs in the Fifties, or Kiri Te Kanawa more recently).

I found myself pleasantly surprised. My experience of folk songs being sung
in classical style has not been good, but I have enjoyed listening to two
CDs by Scholl. I liked the accompaniment too.

Maybe I'm getting old and tolerant. But good music is resilient and can
withstand being handled in more ways than one.

Alan

[Peanutjake]

My favorite countertenor in the 1940's was Richard Dyer Bennett.
Here is his bio.

http://www.cmt.com/artists/az/dyer_bennett_richard/bio.jhtml

[Molly Mockford]

At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...

I've just noticed that Scholl is also on the Last Night of the Proms
tonight. In the first half (7:30) he'll be singing Handel: Ombra mai
fu, Dove sei and Se parla nel mio cor; in the second half (21:10) he'll
be singing Down by the Salley Gardens and Fairest Isle (Purcell).
Information from <http://www.andreasschollsociety.org/news.htm#prom>.

[Hamish Currie]

Post by Molly Mockford
At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...

I've just noticed that Scholl is also on the Last Night of the Proms
tonight. In the first half (7:30) he'll be singing Handel: Ombra mai fu,
Dove sei and Se parla nel mio cor; in the second half (21:10) he'll be
singing Down by the Salley Gardens and Fairest Isle (Purcell). Information
from <http://www.andreasschollsociety.org/news.htm#prom>.
--
Molly Mockford

Missed that - but I *did* catch John Williams. Awesome.

[Jim Lawton]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:39:53 +0100, "Hamish Currie"

Post by Molly Mockford
At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...

I've just noticed that Scholl is also on the Last Night of the Proms
tonight. In the first half (7:30) he'll be singing Handel: Ombra mai fu,
Dove sei and Se parla nel mio cor; in the second half (21:10) he'll be
singing Down by the Salley Gardens and Fairest Isle (Purcell). Information
from <http://www.andreasschollsociety.org/news.htm#prom>.
--

Yes, excellent - but also interesting to me is that that is very much the
register that Anthony (and the Johnsons) sings in.
--
Jim
"a single species has come to dominate ...
reproducing at bacterial levels, almost as an
infectious plague envelops its host"
http://tinyurl.com/c88xs

[Hamish Currie]

Post by Hamish Currie

Post by Molly Mockford
At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...

I've just noticed that Scholl is also on the Last Night of the Proms
tonight. In the first half (7:30) he'll be singing Handel: Ombra mai
fu, Dove sei and Se parla nel mio cor; in the second half (21:10) he'll
be singing Down by the Salley Gardens and Fairest Isle (Purcell).
Information from <http://www.andreasschollsociety.org/news.htm#prom>.
--
Molly Mockford

Missed that - but I *did* catch John Williams. Awesome.

Woah! I misread your note, Molly: yes I *did* get Sally Gardens and the
Purcell. I loved:

a) John W plunking through some pretty basic chords for Sally Gardens, and
b) My missus and younger daughter saying they preferred *my* version.
~8^))

Tee hee.

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by Hamish Currie

Post by Hamish Currie

Post by Molly Mockford
At 00:10:08 on Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...

I've just noticed that Scholl is also on the Last Night of the Proms
tonight. In the first half (7:30) he'll be singing Handel: Ombra mai
fu, Dove sei and Se parla nel mio cor; in the second half (21:10) he'll
be singing Down by the Salley Gardens and Fairest Isle (Purcell).
Information from <http://www.andreasschollsociety.org/news.htm#prom>.
--
Molly Mockford

Missed that - but I *did* catch John Williams. Awesome.

Woah! I misread your note, Molly: yes I *did* get Sally Gardens and the
a) John W plunking through some pretty basic chords for Sally Gardens, and
b) My missus and younger daughter saying they preferred *my* version.
~8^))

Well I hope you make it to the Proms next year, Hamish!

I was really surprised. I don't usually like counter-tenors - they often
sound a bit thin and metallic and forced. Nor am I usually impressed by
"serious" arrangements of traditional songs. But I found Scholl absolutely
captivating, and I thought the simplicity of the accompaniment was spot-on.
He had a purity and warmth to his tone that I've never heard in a
counter-tenor before. Stunning.

I was less impressed by the choice and arrangement of "folk songs" to
represent Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They seemed to me (increasingly, in
that order of appearance) trite, over-arranged with messy chords and
sometimes inappropriate harmonies, and, in the case of NI, over-orchestrated
to the point where that lovely young choir were swamped by instrumentation.
It reminded me of why I've come to enjoy traditional folk music more than
classical; once you get used to the relative sparseness of traditional
music, a lot of "art" music sounds fussy, contrived, cluttered.

It also reminded me that, for me, singing is at the heart of music. All the
rest is second-best.

Oh, and John Williams looks a lot like Sven-Joran Erikson from certain
angles, doesn't he? Bet he doesn't earn as much, though, and I know which
one I think makes a greater contribution to our culture.

[anahata]

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I was less impressed by the choice and arrangement of "folk songs" to
represent Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They seemed to me (increasingly, in
that order of appearance) trite, over-arranged with messy chords and
sometimes inappropriate harmonies, and, in the case of NI, over-orchestrated
to the point where that lovely young choir were swamped by instrumentation.

But it's meant to be a joke!
In the context of the second half of the last might of the proms, which
is a very different animal from the first half of the concert,
over-egging the pudding is completely appropriate.

What's to be more concerned about is how seriaouly folk music is taken
by the music establishment when it's not just supposed to be a (mostly)
irreverent party.

[Richard Robinson]

Post by anahata

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I was less impressed by the choice and arrangement of "folk songs" to
represent Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They seemed to me (increasingly, in
that order of appearance) trite, over-arranged with messy chords and
sometimes inappropriate harmonies, and, in the case of NI, over-orchestrated
to the point where that lovely young choir were swamped by instrumentation.

But it's meant to be a joke!
In the context of the second half of the last might of the proms, which
is a very different animal from the first half of the concert,
over-egging the pudding is completely appropriate.
What's to be more concerned about is how seriaouly folk music is taken
by the music establishment when it's not just supposed to be a (mostly)
irreverent party.

A natural resource ? Raw material for the important people to make Real Art
out of.

[Julian Flood]

Post by Richard Robinson

What's to be more concerned about is how seriously folk music is

taken

Post by Richard Robinson

by the music establishment when it's not just supposed to be a (mostly)
irreverent party.

A natural resource ? Raw material for the important people to make Real Art
out of.

What exactly is going on when 'real' singers do folk? I'd guess it's
the sustain they use, swelling the note. I can put up with a lot,
imitation Elvis, fake Merkin accents, the lot, but plummy singing of
folk tunes really really makes me wince.

Illustration: contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

JF
<walks off singing in pompous tones> Drake is in his hammock, he's a
thousand miles away, Cap'n are you sleeping down below?</>

[Jim Lawton]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:10:03 +0100, "Julian Flood"

Post by Julian Flood
What exactly is going on when 'real' singers do folk? I'd guess it's
the sustain they use, swelling the note. I can put up with a lot,
imitation Elvis, fake Merkin accents, the lot, but plummy singing of
folk tunes really really makes me wince.

Hmmm - "real singers" eh? Can / worms / Pandora / duck etc etc ...

I think, speaking as a different sort of "real" singer, that the highly trained
operatic voice is taught to concentrate on the medium, rather than the message.

I've been to a lot of workshops with a lot of singers - Sandra Kerr, Gordianna
McCulloch, Barry Coope, Janet Russell, Maggie Boyle, Frankie Armstrong for a
start - and I've though a lot about how to deliver folk songs, and I think most,
if not all, of those accomplished singers would agree, that in the folk world
we sing in our own voice, and the story is more important than the performer.

Of course you can learn how to improve your delivery, and how to *tell* the
story, and even how to extend your range, diction and whatever, but your aim is
to remain yourself, the story teller.

That is why I find the imitation "mid-atlantic" singer-songwriter drawl so
unacceptable. I also dislike the artificial hooting of some choirs, and how I
hate the barbershop choir, ugh.

Another imitation "voice" I've spotted is that of the stage musical. Always just
hanging on the verge of sharp. Here's the line to conjure it up for you :- "I
don't know how to love him" .

It's not that any of these people who sing as they do, can't sing, but they are
overlaying some artificiality on their own natural voices.

Andreas Scholl was wonderful, but he was wonderful like a harp or a trumpet, his
facility overwhelmed the Sally Garden.

Damn, an essay.

Post by Julian Flood
<walks off singing in pompous tones> Drake is in his hammock, he's a
thousand miles away, Cap'n are you sleeping down below?</>

No, you bugger, you woke me up :-)
--
Jim
"a single species has come to dominate ...
reproducing at bacterial levels, almost as an
infectious plague envelops its host"
http://tinyurl.com/c88xs

[Molly Mockford]

Post by Jim Lawton
Andreas Scholl was wonderful, but he was wonderful like a harp or a trumpet, his
facility overwhelmed the Sally Garden.

The voice used as a musical instrument, indeed. (Considers
"mouth-music"...)

A strangely uninformative trailer has just been aired promising us
"three men singing in high-pitched voices" on Pick of the Week on Radio
4 at 6:15. I assume this will include Scholl, and wonder whether it may
also include that old recording of the last castrato, whose name I can't
fetch to mind at the moment.

It may, neatly, bring us full circle to an extract from the programme
which Jack caught which started off this thread!

[Nick Wagg]

Post by Molly Mockford
A strangely uninformative trailer has just been aired promising us
"three men singing in high-pitched voices" on Pick of the Week on Radio
4 at 6:15.

"Four Puffs & A Piano"?

[Linda Fox]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:10:03 +0100, "Julian Flood"

Post by Julian Flood
What exactly is going on when 'real' singers do folk? I'd guess it's
the sustain they use, swelling the note. I can put up with a lot,
imitation Elvis, fake Merkin accents, the lot, but plummy singing of
folk tunes really really makes me wince.

Does plummy singing of non-folk music make you wince as well? If so,
don't you think it's the common factor (plumminess) that is wrong for
you rather than the fact that they're folk tunes? Do you regard all
classical singing as plummy, or only certain styles of classical
delivery?

OTOH, if you can take a good classical voice singing Schubert or
Vaughan Williams but not folk melodies, I'd suggest there's a little
prejudice going on there. I don't regard Britten's folk settings as
folk songs, but as "classical" songs distilling some folk melodies and
words. How do you feel hearing a song with a beautiful and simple
melody you've never heard before, sung well? If you reserve judgement
until you've discovered whether the tune is traditional or composed,
then that's not an aesthetic valuation you're making. If you hear the
same song, like it, then learn it was a folk tune you hadn't known,
how do you react?

Post by Julian Flood
Illustration: contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

That'll be a good trick if you can do it, because as far as I can tell
Britten never set Housman; you may know something obscure that I
don't, though.

Linda ff

[Hamish Currie]

Post by Linda Fox
Does plummy singing of non-folk music make you wince as well? If so,
don't you think it's the common factor (plumminess) that is wrong for
you rather than the fact that they're folk tunes? Do you regard all
classical singing as plummy, or only certain styles of classical
delivery?

Um, personally, plummy singing of anything makes me cringe. Then again,
plummy speaking does that, too!

~8^)

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by Jim Lawton
On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:10:03 +0100, "Julian Flood"
Does plummy singing of non-folk music make you wince as well? If so,
don't you think it's the common factor (plumminess) that is wrong for
you rather than the fact that they're folk tunes? Do you regard all
classical singing as plummy, or only certain styles of classical
delivery?
OTOH, if you can take a good classical voice singing Schubert or
Vaughan Williams but not folk melodies, I'd suggest there's a little
prejudice going on there. I don't regard Britten's folk settings as
folk songs, but as "classical" songs distilling some folk melodies and
words. How do you feel hearing a song with a beautiful and simple
melody you've never heard before, sung well? If you reserve judgement
until you've discovered whether the tune is traditional or composed,
then that's not an aesthetic valuation you're making. If you hear the
same song, like it, then learn it was a folk tune you hadn't known,
how do you react?

I've been away for a couple of days but have been mulling this over. Me, I
don't like "plummy" singing in any genre of music, but I also dislike
hearing folk or traditional material sung in any "classical" or churchy
style, which may not necessarily involve pluminess. Now, why do I feel like
this?

I think it has something to do with naturalness of expression. Folk/trad
songs are, in the context of the folk/trad world, more often sung with a
voice that is close to the speech patterns of the singer, and usually
preserve any regional accent. The pitch, too, is usually much closer to that
of the speaking voice than in much classical singing. The words also matter
more: as Jim has said, there's usually a much greater emphasis on the text
of the song rather than just the sound it makes; and yet the song is
delivered without exaggerated gestures or dramatic facial expressions -
there's a sort of understatedness about the delivery that characterises folk
song at its best. Oh, and most singers are actively guarding against
"listen-to-the-lovely-sound-I-make" wallowing, which gets between the song
and the listener. (I know all these are generalisations, and there are
exceptions to every one of them.)

So when I hear a song that I already know as one that's in the folk
repertoire, it disappoints and irritates me to hear it sung as if it's an
operatic aria, with the vowels distorted and consonants swallowed in order
to emphasise a beautiful melody line, or with the over-enunciated delivery
and trilled "r" so beloved of choirboy singing. It may be good singing of
its sort, but to me it's not the style of singing that best suits the
material. I also dislike fussy arrangements with unnecessarily complicated
chords.

I suppose you could reverse the situation and see how people reacted: Kate
Rusby singing "One Fine Day"? Or how would Ewan McColl have handled "Nessun
Dorma" (even if he had the right register of voice)?

I don't mind so much when it's instrumental music, and can quite enjoy, say,
Butterworth's Banks of Green Willow for what it is. It's when the voice
comes in that the mismatch of style and material can occur.

[Linda Fox]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:33:15 +0000 (UTC), "Marjorie Clarke"

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I've been away for a couple of days but have been mulling this over. Me, I
don't like "plummy" singing in any genre of music, but I also dislike
hearing folk or traditional material sung in any "classical" or churchy
style, which may not necessarily involve pluminess. Now, why do I feel like
this?
with the vowels distorted and consonants swallowed in order
to emphasise a beautiful melody line,

<splutter>

Only bad singers of ANY genre do that. Any singing teacher worth their
salt will make sure that a singer _doesn't_ swallow consonants - in
fact probably yer average Vaughan Williams singer (let's take Bryn
Terfel, OK, he's not exactly average) will be if anything _less_
distorted and swallowed than yer average folk singer. Do you _really_
think Bryn swallows his consonants, Marjorie? Do you really think his
vowels are distorted?

Post by Marjorie Clarke
or with the over-enunciated delivery

Make your mind up, Marjorie, one minute ago they were swallowing their
consonants... :o)

Post by Marjorie Clarke
and trilled "r" so beloved of choirboy singing. It may be good singing of
its sort, but to me it's not the style of singing that best suits the
material. I also dislike fussy arrangements with unnecessarily complicated
chords.

Don't you think "the material" changes with the medium?

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I suppose you could reverse the situation and see how people reacted: Kate
Rusby singing "One Fine Day"? Or how would Ewan McColl have handled "Nessun
Dorma" (even if he had the right register of voice)?

It depends on context. Maybe it's a one-way street here, in that some
classical (using the word very loosely) song is strophic, but how much
folk is through-composed to the extent that Puccini is, with changes
of key and extended phrase-lengths and so forth?

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I don't mind so much when it's instrumental music, and can quite enjoy, say,
Butterworth's Banks of Green Willow for what it is. It's when the voice
comes in that the mismatch of style and material can occur.

I think the fact that you can enjoy a folk-originated _melody_ for its
own sake is where your argument falls down. If you actually can't take
a classical song and enjoy it on its own merits, that's one thing,
fair enough. But if you can, but you can't enjoy it _as_ a classical
song because you know its pedigree, you're blocking yourself off from
something.

Brigg Fair for instance? You can listen to Joseph Whatsisname's
original. You can enjoy Delius' orchestral rhapsody based on it
(perhaps). You could listen to a choral song by Percy Grainger in
which you understood that the melody was original Grainger and
sensitively sung by a solo tenor with a choral backing, and enjoy it
(perhaps). If that same melody then turns out to be Brigg Fair and you
didn't know it when you heard the "classical" composition, do you then
change your mind? Can't you take the piece on its _own_ merits?

Maybe I'm just a little touchy at the suggestion that trained singers
don't try to express the words, having spent years trying to make sure
they do just that. That's certainly true of some of them, but they're
not good ones.

How do you feel about some of the black American singers such as
Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman and the way they perform spirituals?

Linda ff

[David Kilpatrick]

This argument is as old as it's new. There are some songs, in 'folk',
which were written for singing and some which were written almost for
declamation as dialect humour, and some which were are spoken drama,
some which are word puzzles, some which are nonsense-rhymes... etc

The picture Marjorie paints of a bloke standing stock still in a flat
cap singing in something close to his spoken manner without twitching an
eyebrow or taking his hands from his pockets is a tad dated and almost
as boring as legs akimbo, finger in ear and eyes closed. I say bloke
because in fact I have rarely come across female singers who do either,
which is probably why so many have so good over the years.

In Scotland and NE England you find a good appreciation of singing for
the melody which often leaves the accent in second place; discernable,
softening the formality of the delivery, but rarely up front. When that
happens, folk begins to sound like music hall or cariacature. If you
really dig into older Scots songs, in particular, you get some vocal
gymnastics which are more difficult to master than yodelling and are
hardly ever attempted now. Ian Bruce delivering an unaccompanied and
complete rendering of 'Dark Lochnagarr' on request is a rare example I
can remember, and Gavin Davidson doing the same when someone asked for
'Lock the Door Larriston'.

Both are romantic era Regency poetry, not folksong, but the tunes are
firmly based on popular traditional themes or the period before the
words were written - Lochnagarr being more classicized and dolled up
than Larriston. Anyone who knows both will see where they connect, too.

In both of these a well trained voice, good breathing, first rate vowel
and consonant delivery are vital.

There's a valid argument that Scots traditional songs like this are not
folk, and not traditional, but better called 'national song'. England
had national song as well but you don't hear the contents of the Francis
and Day Community Song Book get an airing often, unless Jim Moray is
around :-) Instead, it's grim down t'foak cloob, lad...

David

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by David Kilpatrick
This argument is as old as it's new. There are some songs, in 'folk',
which were written for singing and some which were written almost for
declamation as dialect humour, and some which were are spoken drama, some
which are word puzzles, some which are nonsense-rhymes... etc
The picture Marjorie paints of a bloke standing stock still in a flat cap
singing in something close to his spoken manner without twitching an
eyebrow or taking his hands from his pockets is a tad dated and almost as
boring as legs akimbo, finger in ear and eyes closed. I say bloke because
in fact I have rarely come across female singers who do either, which is
probably why so many have so good over the years.

Hang on, where did all that come from? I think your imagination's run away
with you there!
What I said about the register and pitch is true of almost all modern folk
singers, yourself included. In classical singing, the average range used is
about a fouth or a fifth higher than is normal in folk - sopranos will
happily soar up to a top A or B and even altos regularly sing a top G. If
you sang in that sort of range in a folk club, you'd get some very funny
looks and be left on your own in the choruses.

I was in fact thinking more of female singers - Maddy Prior, June Tabor,
Norma Waterson, Eliza Carthy - and all the things I said apply to their
singing. Norma's a bit of a one-off because of her traveller/gypsy
background, and she uses much more in the way of expansive gestures and
facial expressions, but that's fairly exceptional.

Post by David Kilpatrick
In Scotland and NE England you find a good appreciation of singing for the
melody which often leaves the accent in second place; discernable,
softening the formality of the delivery, but rarely up front.

Karine Polwart? Isla Cameron? Louis Killen? Alex Glasgow? All sing in their
natural accents - not in exaggerated dialects, but in an accent not very far
removed from speech. If they were trained to perform as classical singers
that would all have to go.

Post by David Kilpatrick
When that happens, folk begins to sound like music hall or cariacature.

I think you're talking about something much more extreme than just retaining
one's own accent. I agree, dialect song is another kettle of worms entirely.

Post by David Kilpatrick
If you really dig into older Scots songs, in particular, you get some vocal
gymnastics which are more difficult to master than yodelling and are hardly
ever attempted now. Ian Bruce delivering an unaccompanied and complete
rendering of 'Dark Lochnagarr' on request is a rare example I can remember,
and Gavin Davidson doing the same when someone asked for 'Lock the Door
Larriston'.

Good point, and one I could have made in support of what I said. Folk song
(not just Scots but English and Irish too) has its own vocal techniques,
inflexions and styles of ornamentation. If you remove those and substitute
those of another musical genre, the song loses something important. This is
particularly the case when the song is unaccompanied, as the ornamentation
is a way of alluding to harmonies and chords that are not present but
implied. An extreme form of this is Irish "sean nos" singing; I can't do
this with any skill, and so there are many Irish songs I simply wouldn't
attempt, because I think they need and deserve to be sung in the traditional
style.

Post by David Kilpatrick
In both of these a well trained voice, good breathing, first rate vowel
and consonant delivery are vital.

Of course they are, I wouldn't question that for a minute. I've attended all
sorts of vocal workshops within the folk movement, and also had "classical"
singing lessons. The techniques are somewhat different but equally rigorous.

Post by David Kilpatrick
There's a valid argument that Scots traditional songs like this are not
folk, and not traditional, but better called 'national song'. England had
national song as well but you don't hear the contents of the Francis and
Day Community Song Book get an airing often, unless Jim Moray is around
:-) Instead, it's grim down t'foak cloob, lad...

I have several of these type of songs books, all of a similar vintage.
There's "Scotland Calling", an Irish songbook of the same style, and then
several more general ones. I don't have an "English" one as such, which may
be because I don't come from and English family, but I suspect that they're
not so common. My general Community Song Books contain a mix of songs from
around Britain and Ireland, plus some American Negro spirituals.

The English songs, such as they are, are sometimes parlour-type songs (Come
into the Garden, Maud), very patriotic (Here's a Health unto His Majesty),
or awfully genteel (Come Lasses and Lads). As you say, there really isn't
much you could possibly brush up for a folk club spot. And yet the Irish and
Scottish collections have, in among the sentimental parlour songs, some very
good traditional songs that are still respected and sung. Somehow, despite
the work of the early collectors, a lot of the worthwhile English repertoire
got forgotten or ignored in the first half of last century, and it was only
during the revival of the 1960s and 70s that we got books like the Penguin
Book of English Folk Songs [1] to remind us what a heritage we have.
Scotland, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have experienced this lack of
continuity, and thus has a much more robust repertoire of song that's
regarded as mainstream music.

[1] I have a spare copy of this - the old version, not the recent revision.
If anyone would like it, e-mail me (see below, do the stuff with the @) and
it's yours for a SAE.

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Marjorie Clarke15/9/05 5:04 PM

Post by Marjorie Clarke

Post by David Kilpatrick
In Scotland and NE England you find a good appreciation of singing for the
melody which often leaves the accent in second place; discernable,
softening the formality of the delivery, but rarely up front.

Karine Polwart? Isla Cameron? Louis Killen? Alex Glasgow? All sing in their
natural accents - not in exaggerated dialects, but in an accent not very far
removed from speech.

Last time I heard Louis Killen live, his normal talking accent had changed a
bit from living in the USA. I suspect it has settled back a bit since.

However at the same time, I was impressed at how he sang various songs in
different accents - for instance in a perfect Tyneside accent as one might
expect, and also a perfect mid Northumbrian burr; but then more surprisingly
border Scots and even a couple of songs with IIRC a Western Highland Scots
accent. The whole was seamless, unselfconscious and immensely enjoyable.

The idea of an *English folk song repertoire* - can become a very narrow,
middle England - (even middle class thing) olde worlde pre Industrial
Revolution of rural tradition.

To appreciate the tunes of the older songs is one thing; but to more fully
understand the context of those songs, it is often necessary to have
knowledge and an interest in English history and folk lore. Not so many
people have that interest or want it.

If an *English folk repertoire* doesn't also include those songs created and
sung - often in dialect; with strong regional identity, humour and culture
and/or owe their existence to a specific industrial heritage - we lose so
much.

However I'm not so sure either what relevance or meaning such songs have to
audiences... What relevance, for instance, do coal mining ballads have in
East Anglia, or Lancashire mill workers' songs - to most Londoners?
(Sometimes a short intro/explanation can help greatly of course).

I do remember one woman in a club saying to me, *are you going to sing some
of those unintelligible coal mining ballads*? As it happened, I wasn't going
to do sing them on this occasion, but I answered *yes* anyway.

CR

[David Kilpatrick]

Post by Marjorie Clarke
What I said about the register and pitch is true of almost all modern folk
singers, yourself included. In classical singing, the average range used is
about a fouth or a fifth higher than is normal in folk - sopranos will
happily soar up to a top A or B and even altos regularly sing a top G. If
you sang in that sort of range in a folk club, you'd get some very funny
looks and be left on your own in the choruses.

I am confused about register. Are you talking about female or male?

I'm considered to be a highish pitch singer and normally do harmony
above, not below, though I have a decent range downwards after a couple
of pints. Recordings, one or two full tones below session pitch, which
tends to be higher.

Are you suggesting a male alto can sing the high G, 15th fret of the
treble string of a guitar - or a soprano female the A and B higher than
that, mandolin pitch?

I think I sound pretty high singing the G above middle C (3rd fret
treble E string) and can occasionally rise to the A or B, but I find the
idea of a full octave above that (certainly for any male voice) slightly
boggling. Parts other than the mind, too.

Elucidate?

David

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by David Kilpatrick

Post by Marjorie Clarke
What I said about the register and pitch is true of almost all modern
folk singers, yourself included. In classical singing, the average range
used is about a fouth or a fifth higher than is normal in folk - sopranos
will happily soar up to a top A or B and even altos regularly sing a top
G. If you sang in that sort of range in a folk club, you'd get some very
funny looks and be left on your own in the choruses.

I am confused about register. Are you talking about female or male?

Sorry, I should have made it clear. Female (as in SATB on a vocal score). I
think the male equivalents (tenror and bass) are roughly an octave lower,
except that there are many tenors who comfortably get higher than that. In
the folk world, it doesn't seem to matter so much - it's the high female
voice that sounds out of place.

Post by David Kilpatrick
I think I sound pretty high singing the G above middle C (3rd fret treble
E string) and can occasionally rise to the A or B, but I find the idea of
a full octave above that (certainly for any male voice) slightly boggling.
Parts other than the mind, too.

Agreed, I think that to get an octave higher would probably require surgery.
Please don't try adding another octave to the top of your range, I don't
want to be responsible for any unwelcome consequences! :-)

Best wishes,

Marjorie

[Nick Wagg]

Post by Linda Fox
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:33:15 +0000 (UTC), "Marjorie Clarke"

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I've been away for a couple of days but have been mulling this over. Me, I
don't like "plummy" singing in any genre of music, but I also dislike
hearing folk or traditional material sung in any "classical" or churchy
style, which may not necessarily involve pluminess. Now, why do I feel like
this?
with the vowels distorted and consonants swallowed in order
to emphasise a beautiful melody line,

<splutter>

And so it goes on...

David Kilpatrick raises some good points nearby in this thread
about the nature of different types of folk music.

Choral music evolved its own particular distorted (as in different
from everyday speech) vowels and consonants to be heard in
large echoey or resonant buildings, while folk music almost
certainly took place in small gatherings. Music halls encouraged
bellowing.

I'm not at all sure that the actual words matter all that much
in classical and choral works because they are/were often
very familiar to the audience, albeit in language that few
would have understood or even understand today.

In such a situation, it becomes far more important to convey
the sense of the words by the emotional impact of the sounds
than by their literal meaning.

Post by Linda Fox
Don't you think "the material" changes with the medium?

I'm sure that Marshall McCluhan would have agreed with you
but, personally, I find that certain material is primarily suited
to a particular medium and inevitably loses something when
conveyed in a different manner.

[Jim Lawton]

Post by Nick Wagg
I'm sure that Marshall McCluhan would have agreed with you
but, personally, I find that certain material is primarily suited
to a particular medium and inevitably loses something when
conveyed in a different manner.

Yes, I've had particular difficulty with "Death and the Maiden" on kazoo.
--
Jim
"a single species has come to dominate ...
reproducing at bacterial levels, almost as an
infectious plague envelops its host"
http://tinyurl.com/c88xs

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by Linda Fox
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:33:15 +0000 (UTC), "Marjorie Clarke"

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I've been away for a couple of days but have been mulling this over. Me, I
don't like "plummy" singing in any genre of music, but I also dislike
hearing folk or traditional material sung in any "classical" or churchy
style, which may not necessarily involve pluminess. Now, why do I feel like
this?
with the vowels distorted and consonants swallowed in order
to emphasise a beautiful melody line,

<splutter>
Only bad singers of ANY genre do that. Any singing teacher worth their
salt will make sure that a singer _doesn't_ swallow consonants - in
fact probably yer average Vaughan Williams singer (let's take Bryn
Terfel, OK, he's not exactly average) will be if anything _less_
distorted and swallowed than yer average folk singer. Do you _really_
think Bryn swallows his consonants, Marjorie?

Maybe not, but there are plenty of high-profile operatic singers who do.
Believe me, it can be quite difficult for the non-specialist to ascertain
even which language is being used in some recordings.

Post by Linda Fox
Do you really think his
vowels are distorted?

I'd need to have another listen, but it's standard practice for "serious"
singers to stretch the vowels at the top and bottom of their ranges in order
to gain volume and open up the tone.

Post by Linda Fox

Post by Marjorie Clarke
or with the over-enunciated delivery

Make your mind up, Marjorie, one minute ago they were swallowing their
consonants... :o)

Hang on, I did say "or". I was referring to two different styles of singing.

Post by Linda Fox

Post by Marjorie Clarke
and trilled "r" so beloved of choirboy singing. It may be good singing of
its sort, but to me it's not the style of singing that best suits the
material. I also dislike fussy arrangements with unnecessarily complicated
chords.

Don't you think "the material" changes with the medium?

Yes - in fact maybe that's just the problem.

Post by Linda Fox

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I suppose you could reverse the situation and see how people reacted: Kate
Rusby singing "One Fine Day"? Or how would Ewan McColl have handled "Nessun
Dorma" (even if he had the right register of voice)?

It depends on context. Maybe it's a one-way street here, in that some
classical (using the word very loosely) song is strophic, but how much
folk is through-composed to the extent that Puccini is, with changes
of key and extended phrase-lengths and so forth?

I didn't mean that folkd singers couldn't do it, I was just wondering how
they'd be received in the wider musical world if they did. There would
probably be comments similar to mine, about the singing being perfectly OK
but not appropriate to the song.

Post by Linda Fox

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I don't mind so much when it's instrumental music, and can quite enjoy, say,
Butterworth's Banks of Green Willow for what it is. It's when the voice
comes in that the mismatch of style and material can occur.

I think the fact that you can enjoy a folk-originated _melody_ for its
own sake is where your argument falls down. If you actually can't take
a classical song and enjoy it on its own merits, that's one thing,
fair enough. But if you can, but you can't enjoy it _as_ a classical
song because you know its pedigree, you're blocking yourself off from
something.
Brigg Fair for instance? You can listen to Joseph Whatsisname's
original. You can enjoy Delius' orchestral rhapsody based on it
(perhaps).

No, no, please not Delius! He's in my Room 101 list - I don't care where he
gets his tunes from, I just don't like what he does with them.

You could listen to a choral song by Percy Grainger in

Post by Linda Fox
which you understood that the melody was original Grainger and
sensitively sung by a solo tenor with a choral backing, and enjoy it
(perhaps). If that same melody then turns out to be Brigg Fair and you
didn't know it when you heard the "classical" composition, do you then
change your mind? Can't you take the piece on its _own_ merits?

As I said, I can repond to the melody being given alternative treatments,
but if it's a folk song I know already, I find that certain vocal styles
just grate and don't work for me. I'm not saying they shouldn't happen, just
that they don't hit the spot for me. We all come to any piece of music with
certain memories and preferences, and that's how mine respond.

Post by Linda Fox
Maybe I'm just a little touchy at the suggestion that trained singers
don't try to express the words, having spent years trying to make sure
they do just that. That's certainly true of some of them, but they're
not good ones.
How do you feel about some of the black American singers such as
Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman and the way they perform spirituals?

Mixed feelings. I prefer the more rough-edged style you hear in, for
instance "O Brother Where Art Thou?". But this is a bit different because
it's not my native music, it belongs in another culture that is not mine.

[Jack Campin - bogus address]

Post by Linda Fox

Me, I don't like "plummy" singing in any genre of music, but I also
dislike hearing folk or traditional material sung in any "classical"
or churchy style, which may not necessarily involve pluminess. [...]
with the vowels distorted and consonants swallowed in order to
emphasise a beautiful melody line,

Only bad singers of ANY genre do that. Any singing teacher worth their
salt will make sure that a singer _doesn't_ swallow consonants - in
fact probably yer average Vaughan Williams singer (let's take Bryn
Terfel, OK, he's not exactly average) will be if anything _less_
distorted and swallowed than yer average folk singer.

Some years ago I heard a pretty dramatic example of a folksinger
out-consonanting anybody in the classical world. The troubadour
song "A l'entrada del temps clar" has been recorded many times,
usually without much variation in the sound of the words (old
Provencal). But it's been recorded by a group of native Provencal
speakers - they rolled the "r"s like Harry Lauder only more so.
(I can't remember who they were). Before that, the most convincing
performnces of troubadour songs I'd heard were by Thomas Binkley -
he was a brilliant musician and a dramatic performer, but even he
didn't come close for focusing on the individual words.

Vowel distortion is a standard trick you find explicitly described
in singing texts. When a trained singer does an [ai] dispthong
they'll prolong the [a] bit because it has the mouth more open,
which makes for a bigger sound. I doubt you will find many people
on Alan Lomax's tapes doing that. The instinctive way to sing it
is to move on to the [i] very early on in the syllable.

Post by Linda Fox

and trilled "r" so beloved of choirboy singing.

I didn't think choirboys pronounced "r"s at all?

Post by Linda Fox

Kate Rusby singing "One Fine Day"? Or how would Ewan McColl have
handled "Nessun Dorma" (even if he had the right register of voice)?

Using folk vocal technique, and non-elite accents, is what John Potter
has tried and advocated (with "Red Byrd" and in his book "Vocal Authority"
which I must get round to reading someday). They wouldn't fall into the
utter mindboggling stupidity of singing Elizabethan music in a modern
English RP accent, anyway - I find that completely unlistenable, and for
that matter have no intention of ever sitting through another Shakespeare
performance in RP.

Post by Linda Fox
It depends on context. Maybe it's a one-way street here, in that some
classical (using the word very loosely) song is strophic, but how much
folk is through-composed to the extent that Puccini is, with changes
of key and extended phrase-lengths and so forth?

Doesn't affect vocal technique, does it? (There are Scottish and
Irish instrumental pieces from before 1700 that are as free-form as
any opera aria - "Give Me Your Hand" is the only one still performed
much in the folk repertoire, and that only in one of the surviving
versions).

Post by Linda Fox
How do you feel about some of the black American singers such as
Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman and the way they perform spirituals?

I don't know Battle's work. I think I've heard Norman doing spirituals
and thought it was overblown melodramatic rubbish. But then the last
time I heard her sing was in a live broadcast of a Wagner opera from
the Met, and that was overblown melodramatic rubbish too - I turned it
off after a few minutes of bellowing wobble. It was *exactly* the kind
of performance people here have been complaining about - I know enough
German that I ought to have been able to pick out at least *some* words,
and I got absolutely nothing. You can articulate consonants better
through a trombone. Wagner doesn't *need* to be an Anna Russell joke.

The last black American singer I've heard live was Betty Carter. Now
*there's* somebody who can articulate words clearly.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
I didn't think choirboys pronounced "r"s at all?

Think "O for the wings of a Dove" and then go to "Far away, far away would I
rove." That sort of r they trill. The rest they leave out.

[Russ Clare]

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I suppose you could reverse the situation and see how people reacted: Kate
Rusby singing "One Fine Day"? Or how would Ewan McColl have handled "Nessun
Dorma" (even if he had the right register of voice)?

I've just been listening to a CD of Ewan McColl recordings from way
back. I was struck by the variety of poor, cod accents he employed for
songs of different origins - Irish, Lancs. et al, as well as his
(native? adopted?) Scots. So, perhaps he could have done "plummy" as
well - perceptions and constraints of politics and class
notwithstanding, of course.

--

Russ Clare

[Paul Burke]

Post by Russ Clare
I've just been listening to a CD of Ewan McColl recordings from way
back. I was struck by the variety of poor, cod accents he employed for
songs of different origins - Irish, Lancs. et al, as well as his
(native? adopted?) Scots.

His Lancashire accent ought to have been at least as good as mine. I
can't say anything about his Scots or Irish. June Tabor does the worst
'northern' accent I've come across since whatsername's brother in Frasier.

Paul Burke

[Julian Flood]

Post by Russ Clare
I've just been listening to a CD of Ewan McColl recordings from way
back. I was struck by the variety of poor, cod accents he employed for
songs of different origins - Irish, Lancs. et al, as well as his
(native? adopted?) Scots. So, perhaps he could have done "plummy" as
well - perceptions and constraints of politics and class
notwithstanding, of course.

And it was McColl who insisted that people stick within their own
tradition. Maybe he had to reinvent himself to find a musical
tradition he was comfortable with.

I am tempted to try /My Old Man/ in Oxford tones. That
should tease the warblers.

JF

[Jack Campin - bogus address]

Post by Julian Flood
contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

Are you thinking of Vaughan Williams's "On Wenlock Edge"?
It's pretty good though not easy to sing. (A lot of RVW's
apparently artless and folky instrumental stuff is actually
a right bugger to play, too).

I've never heard of Raven's settings, have they been published
or recorded?

Housman would probably have thought both Raven and Vaughan
Williams were tastelessly heterosexual.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel [phone]
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax [phone]
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob [phone]

[David Kilpatrick]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Julian Flood
contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

Are you thinking of Vaughan Williams's "On Wenlock Edge"?
It's pretty good though not easy to sing. (A lot of RVW's
apparently artless and folky instrumental stuff is actually
a right bugger to play, too).
I've never heard of Raven's settings, have they been published
or recorded?

Mike Raven has a number of books. I've found some of them and bought
them. They include many excellent simple guitar instrumentals (he seems
mainly to have played nylon string) and trad song arrangements and well
as originals. I have never tried to perform anything; I bought them for
interest, to see how he handled things. Nor have I ever heard Mike Raven
live or recorded. The books sold themselves on a brief glance.

In the back of them he has a HUGE tape-CD resource and further published
music - a massive output.

David

[Julian Flood]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address

Post by Julian Flood
contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

Are you thinking of Vaughan Williams's "On Wenlock Edge"?
It's pretty good though not easy to sing.

Specifically there's 'Is My Team Ploughing', strained and over the top
with Britten, sweet and melancholy in Raven's version. Raven's Wenlock
Edge is good, but Raven's 'Tis Time I think, by Wenlock Edge, the
golden broom does blow' is best, simple and the melody falls from the
guitarist's fingers, even those of a beginner like me -- immensely
satisfying and it also fits 'Into my heart an air that kills'. I mix
the two up to give a song of better length for a pub session. <note to
self, must do more of them>

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
I've never heard of Raven's settings, have they been published
or recorded?

Raven and Joan .... my apologies to the lady with the lovely voice, I
have forgotten her name. Mills? There's a CD and a book that goes with
it. Lovely simple songs with a strong undercurrent of regret -- much
much better than the art brigade's take on what are, on the face of
it, very simple verses. I liked the comment about performance over
song -- perhaps that's what I dislike about arty folk singing, Look at
Me, rather than Listen to This. Shades of Mrs O'Shea teaching Sweet
Lass of Richmond Hill to ragged country children... The CD also has
some pretty nifty guitar solos -- 36 tunes and songs in toto..

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Housman would probably have thought both Raven and Vaughan
Williams were tastelessly heterosexual.

The cartoon which adorns the cover of Housman's collected works is
hilarious if looked at with a cynical eye. But read 'others, I am not
the first, have willed more evil than they durst...' and give the old
bugger a little sympathy.

JF
If anyone is desperate to track this down* I can search throught the
books and produce a fifteen years out of date telephone number. Ah,
here it is. Joan Mills -- email for an number so old that it predates
the 01 prefix. Delete the oops.

<walks off singing to Brigg Fair> when I was one and twenty I heard a
wise man say,
gives crowns and pounds and guineas, but not your heart away. Give
pearls away and rubies, but keep your fancy free. But I was one and
twenty, no use to talk to me.

*well, you should be.

[Linda Fox]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 05:43:33 +0100, "Julian Flood"

Post by Julian Flood
Specifically there's 'Is My Team Ploughing', strained and over the top
with Britten

And again: I'm not sure there is a Britten setting. Somervell? George
Butterworth? WV?

Unlees of course you're using Britten as a generic term? :o)

Linda ff

[Julian Flood]

Post by Linda Fox
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 05:43:33 +0100, "Julian Flood"

Post by Julian Flood
Specifically there's 'Is My Team Ploughing', strained and over the top
with Britten

And again: I'm not sure there is a Britten setting. Somervell?

George

Post by Linda Fox
Butterworth? WV?
Unless of course you're using Britten as a generic term? :o)

It's probably just faulty memory. I'd guess it must be VW I'm thinking
of but I could have sworn... mutter, chunter... I see he set Is my
team* so that looks as if it might be correct.

JF
*he should be ashamed if he really is the guilty party.

[shepherdlass]

This is a response to the 2 comments made further back in the thread re
"plummy" or artificial singing. Sorry, but some people are really born
with voices that sound naturally plummy - they're the kind who singing
teachers snap up with alacrity to turn into classical stars like
Scholl. However, the raw material of "plumminess" is usually already
there - it's a lack of excess air across the vocal cords and a kind of
natural projection and resonance from the mask of the face . Those
unfortunate souls (I am one) who then try to perform in folk or rock
styles are then constantly struggling to lay an artificial breathiness
or grunge into their voice to avoid accusations of sounding too
"trained". But it raises the question, would it be more NATURAL to
sing with the voice you're born with or to try and emulate the edgier
voices that are more acceptable in these genres? I honestly believe
that the traditional performers of the past would use their real voice
to the best of their ability and if that was a heavily projected sound
(now associated with "West End" or classical) then so be it - whatever
gets the song across.

Right now that's out of the way, just thought of two counter-tenors
from rather less rarified backgrounds: Thom Yorke and Aaron Neville.
Oh, and most of Earth, Wind and Fire!

Post by Linda Fox
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 05:43:33 +0100, "Julian Flood"

Post by Julian Flood
Specifically there's 'Is My Team Ploughing', strained and over the top
with Britten

And again: I'm not sure there is a Britten setting. Somervell? George
Butterworth? WV?
Unlees of course you're using Britten as a generic term? :o)
Linda ff

[Paul Burke]

shepherdlass wrote:
Those

Post by shepherdlass
unfortunate souls (I am one) who then try to perform in folk or rock
styles are then constantly struggling to lay an artificial breathiness
or grunge into their voice to avoid accusations of sounding too
"trained". But it raises the question, would it be more NATURAL to
sing with the voice you're born with or to try and emulate the edgier
voices that are more acceptable in these genres?

At least you can sing one kind of music. Me, I've just got a rotten voice.

[Nick Wagg]

Post by Julian Flood
Illustration: contrast Michael Raven's wonderful settings of Housman's
poems with the arty versions by Britten.

Are you thinking of Butterworth's setting of A Shropshire Lad?

[Marjorie Clarke]

Post by anahata

Post by Marjorie Clarke
I was less impressed by the choice and arrangement of "folk songs" to
represent Wales, Scotland and Ireland. They seemed to me (increasingly,
in that order of appearance) trite, over-arranged with messy chords and
sometimes inappropriate harmonies, and, in the case of NI,
over-orchestrated to the point where that lovely young choir were swamped
by instrumentation.

But it's meant to be a joke!
In the context of the second half of the last might of the proms, which is
a very different animal from the first half of the concert, over-egging
the pudding is completely appropriate.

I'm not so sure. Granted, some of the items at the Royal Albert Hall are now
done almost "ironically", with "Jerusalem" amounting to the concert-goers'
equivalent of The Wild Rover, but the regional choirs looked extremely
earnest to me, and I just wished they'd had better material and arrangements
to apply their energies to.

Post by anahata
What's to be more concerned about is how seriaouly folk music is taken by
the music establishment when it's not just supposed to be a (mostly)
irreverent party.

Of course. But LNOTP isn't helping the general perception much with these
dire arrangements of over-performed songs.

[Nick Wagg]

Post by Marjorie Clarke

Post by anahata
But it's meant to be a joke!
In the context of the second half of the last might of the proms, which is
a very different animal from the first half of the concert, over-egging
the pudding is completely appropriate.

I'm not so sure. Granted, some of the items at the Royal Albert Hall are now
done almost "ironically", with "Jerusalem" amounting to the concert-goers'
equivalent of The Wild Rover, but the regional choirs looked extremely
earnest to me, and I just wished they'd had better material and arrangements
to apply their energies to.

Regional choirs are probably anxious to make a good impression.
It may be intended to be a wild party but it's not every day that you
get invited or win a place to sing at the RAH.

Post by Marjorie Clarke

Post by anahata
What's to be more concerned about is how seriaouly folk music is taken by
the music establishment when it's not just supposed to be a (mostly)
irreverent party.

Of course. But LNOTP isn't helping the general perception much with these
dire arrangements of over-performed songs.

Isn't that what all anthems are?

LNOTP has much in common with the chants at an international
football match. Football I can take or leave, but my spirits soar
when British voices swell behind the drumbeat of the idiot in the
silly hat and painted face. No one else in the world does it better.

[Jim Lawton]

Post by Nick Wagg
LNOTP has much in common with the chants at an international
football match. Football I can take or leave, but my spirits soar
when British voices swell behind the drumbeat of the idiot in the
silly hat and painted face. No one else in the world does it better.

I've never seen Tony Blair wearing a hat.

--
Jim
"a single species has come to dominate ...
reproducing at bacterial levels, almost as an
infectious plague envelops its host"
http://tinyurl.com/c88xs

[Jacey Bedford]

Post by Jack Campin - bogus address
Idle question prompted by hearing a snippet from the Proms in
which Andreas Scholl was singing "Down By The Sally Gardens"...
is there any record of countertenor/male-alto/sopranist voices
in the folk music of the British Isles?
It isn't some rare ability requiring freakish anatomy; basically
everybody can do it to some extent though some are much better
at it than others, and working at it helps. So you'd expect it
to have been done before.

About 20 years ago Hilary found her version of Lowlands Away sung by
countertenor Alfred Deller (The Alfred Deller Consort IIRC) on a vinyl
LP.

I suspect most of us wouldn't think of it as folk music even though it's
folk songs not being sung by a horse.

Jacey

[sapper]

Amazing. 30 odd postings regarding counter tenors but no one has
mentioned James Bowman!!
Or did I miss it?